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Author: Subject: What Makes a Playable Coop ?!?!
Eagle_Eye
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[*] posted on 7-18-2005 at 05:16 PM
What Makes a Playable Coop ?!?!


After playing some more Coops on the weekend (JO and JOE), it has come to my attention that the main aim of the mappers is to see how many times they can kill the player..!!

OK, I like a great challenge..but, let's not go overboard..

A good Coop must have Achievable Goals..

A mapper needs to look at his creation, and size up whether a "Real" squad would attack this target, or will it need a battalion !!

I consider being killed 3 or 4 times acceptable..but, 40+ is just plain ridiculous..

Let's remember a basic rule with DF games...

The AI can Not see through Collision Boxes..

So, this means that if you can walk through it, the AI don't even see it..they see straight through as if it wasn't there..

So, this includes tall grass and tree branches..

Keep this in mind when mapping, if you put a bush there for cover..you may as well mine the area, cos it's not gonna hide the player from AI..

You need a Physical Barrier to hide the player..

Use tiles to flatten grassed areas where a sniper might want to sit..this will give the sniper at least a chance of seeing the BG before he sees you..

Lower the default settings of the BG's, remember what the Med Manuals say..leaving the settings on 100, or above is madness..use 50-75 for the accuracy settings..

Don't put BG's with RPG to close to a hill, cos if you came in from the wrong side your gonna create a situation of Rapid Fire of the RPG..

Let's make the Coop enjoyable, and, remember, there may not be 64 players on a server, there may just be a handfull of Players on a LAN..

So, keeping this in mind, make sure there are enough armories near the objective so the players can rearm..

Like the map I played on the weekend, only one of us was carrying "Flat Packs"..that's means 2..but, it needed 6 to blow the objective, and the nearest armory was way back at the start!!!

Lets, be more objective when creating Coops people..

Also, I don't want to spend 2 and a half hours on the one map..as on the weekend..and, it wasn't even very good!!

1 hour is a good time..

Keep the respawns to a minimum..and no respawns where the player has already cleared..

EE









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[*] posted on 7-19-2005 at 08:21 AM


Amen brother!

Thanks EE
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[*] posted on 7-19-2005 at 10:15 AM
I 2nd that


I agree with everything in EE's post. Well done Mate!! As a big fan of Coop myself, I too think a map should have realistic goals and approaches as opposed to a death fest...

It's alot more fun to spend an hour or less on a map and play on several instead of 1/2 the day on 2 or 3...






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thumbup.gif posted on 7-29-2005 at 11:21 AM


Just can agree EE diden't know where i had to put this. as a hard coopgamer (hoster) i am sick of those maps made by sadics (you come in ander there are 5 or 6 psg snipers who are waiting btw, and they are proning... ) those are maps for macho's. Yesterday i downded a map for Xtreme by Jonathan in that map you can choose the difficulty( easy, medium or hard) deppends what you take at the start . does nothing on the athomsfeer there is still a challenge and you have fun plze no more maps where you need 3 or 4 hours and more to get to LZ thats no fun but its fustrating thx EE and the others here in the barracks i apriciate what you are doing for us DF gamers:)
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[*] posted on 7-30-2005 at 02:27 AM


My two cents worth here as a Coop LW player and a "sometime TFD" coop player, as I posted to our squad forum.


"This is my opinion only, and yep I too have been guilty of these "map making" crimes


~ Choppers - unless they are blind deaf and dumb ... they are an absolute NO GO for coop games. Only the host can see these dang things, the rest of us have visions of of them, but they are not where they appear, so the hostees have to shoot for the tracers. Also a BAD thing for dial-up ppl

~ Proners - again only the host can see them as prone, players see them as standing, hence the old saying "shoot them in the feet"

~ Too many roamers / walkers / free range bg's. They can tend to get stuck in hilly terrains and if the "win" condition depends on eliminating all AI ... I'm sure you can figure the results of that

~ The insert point being in an armory ... takes one simpleton to blow the armory .. respawn in armory and guess what, you are going absolutely nowhere!

~ That good old bullet magnet, the case. Sure, make it a goal but not a win condition. Who has been in a map when a moron has the case and has decided to bugger off to Siberia with it, then leaves the game?

~ AI with 100% perception and accuracy ... I N S A N E

~ Fog .. fog is good. As long as I can see out of my foggy little world as well as the bg's I am hunting, then I am cool with that

~ Para inserts for dial up ppl .. and yes, some of us still have dial up LOL. Death by para insert .... makes a person more frustrated than a ##%%% priest at a Choir Boy meeting (apologies to all the ###%%% priests who read this)






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[*] posted on 8-26-2005 at 09:49 AM



This is an old post, but has "some" valid points and some as a mapper I wanted to defend... so here goes:

All the maps I create use AI settings below 100. If you get shot in any of my maps too often, you are not paying attention good enough (low and slow is key in ALL my maps).

I really dislike playing maps that last minutes instead of hours; I much prefer the campaign style of map making (which is exactly what I personally adhere to). After all, its a game - its meant to be fun and exciting. Who wants boring and repeatitive. Like most of you out there; we all have invested 100's upon 100's of dollars in the games we play; the only way to actually get your monies worth is with custom maps.

If I wanted realistic goals - I would have joined the real military. Bah... no further comment on this one from me... too heated a possible debate.

Achievable goals: (see above statement) None of my maps are real-life stuff, cuz gaming is suppose to take me away from real life, not bloody closer to it.

An armory as EVERY PSP is vital; I myself used to forget them all the time. Then my best friend reminded me and I started putting them back in.

Sniper Positions: All kinds of them in my maps ( can not speak for others). Although I will NOT make it clear; use your head, think and figure it out.


Final (personal) Comment:

I make maps that are way out there, because I have been a DF gamer since day 1 and the one thing I have always disliked during all this time - is the lack of creativity (until the days of JO). Every day I used to play the same boring maps. Goto here, kill this guy (he'll just be standing there like an dork, easy to spot), then go over here and kill some choppers (which yes are so realistic like - invisible), then go here and get the secret documents which will be in a bright white briefcase with a big red mark on the side of it... come on. Boring.....

Until JO hit the market, I was just about ready to say goodbye to DF forever. But now I had the chance to create maps that even I have fun in... no more boring old days and nights playing 20 silly maps.

Then there are those who are all about stats; I couldn't care less about stats. Never have, never will. Thats only MY opinion folks and I fully expect others to have theirs and uphold their beliefs; otherwise it just wouldn't be any fun!!!






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[*] posted on 2-4-2006 at 11:49 AM
nail on the head


Thank you for saying that eagle-eye and fireant. I dont care what the guy that types big says, some mappers are losing sight of what the playing public wants...and if they don't care, why post the maps? That also leads to the respawners question....but, i dont want to go there. A person should not have to use scroll lock is my opinion.
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[*] posted on 2-10-2006 at 03:34 PM


Well, everybody think different about what makes a good playable map.

I think that a mission must have a good story and realistic goals, not thinks like "kill all enemies".
The buildings have to placed not to crasy. Bots have not to respawn apart of the players, so that they have no chance to come into the fight.
A lot of map crators will place the bots without any logic. They do not think about how a real commander will place his mates around a target for a good defend.

Anyway, the stroy is important and the first thing a map creator have to think about. It is like a movie. If the story is bad, the movie is bad. Without a good storyboard, nobody can bulid a good map. This coats more time to create a map, but those maps will have more quality.

So please creators, think about a good stoeyboard before you going on to create a map. That will makes your maps better and it is more interesting to build a map.
And if you do this, you will become nominated for a map oscar ;)

Best regards
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[*] posted on 3-7-2006 at 01:23 PM


I agree with most of the points here.

Before I map anything, I think of some sort of reasonable "storyline" (I think "mission" would be more appropriate). When I see a map like: blood water, gigantic tower floating in the sky, kill the masses of "robots", or navigate through the maze of cement walls and BTR turrets, it's a real turn-off. I would prefer maps where there is an attempt at simulating realism. Although these can seem repetitive in "type," like: your chopper was shot down in enemy territory, go kill the commander, go grab the secret documents, save the POW, or go destroy the weapons crates; these objectives are simply ways for the mappers to put you in interesting (fun) combat situations. The objectives can be the same but the map layout is what makes it enjoyable and unique. For example, I wanted to make a map where players would have to navigate the Mark V boats down a river while being ambushed by rebels. In order to implement the idea, I needed some sort of reason the players were there, that's where the "grab the intel documents" objectives came in. I methodically placed villages along the web of rivers to ensure that players would spend a good amount of time on the Mark V boats on the river and would have a good chance of running through rebel "killzones." After grabbing the intel, blow up a SAM launcher and the classic blackhawk extraction ending ensues (nicest way to end a map I think, also while they are waiting at the extraction location, you can have rebel troops swarm into the area, don't forget to add a PSP there, though). So the map covered my main plan for river patrol, while the intel documents arent really what my map was focusing on but where there to make the player make use of the rivers and hit the rebel killzones.

In brief, although those objectives may seem overused in coops, they arent necessarily what the mapmaker is focusing on, he/she is just trying to create a reason for you to be in that blown up building, being ambushed by a battalion of BG, and blowing them all to hell (or w/e fun situation(s) they want to put you in).

And my tip for mapmakers is to keep a consistent ambience throughout your map. Don't just put the buildings, BG, roads, vehicles, and trees near the bases/objectives. Make sure any area that will most likely be traveled by the players includes some sort of ambience, maybe a few adobes here and there with a short length of dirt road and some foliage. Add a few BG on the trails or in the buildings who will keep the playes on their toes in areas besides just the objectives. For example, a stinger encampment is relatively realistic and makes the players earn their right to chopper transportation and support at the objective. Same with an RPG and rifleman trooper here and there along the roads will make them earn their right for quick ground transport.

I hope this was helpful to the mapmakers and also provided an explanation to those of you who are bored of over-used mission objectives. I mean, it's all repetitive really, get in there and take out the BG, with your gun or by blowing up some objectives.
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[*] posted on 3-7-2006 at 04:11 PM


Well said..








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[*] posted on 3-8-2006 at 02:24 AM


I want to encourage mapmakers to make non-linear setups for their maps. At least some players like the concept. So what does that mean ?
Instead of giving the players a strict list of objectives or even (worse) a strict order in which he has to accomplish certain goals try something else.
The idea behing n-l is that life itself is not linear.(maybe your life is it- u go to work everyday, kiss ur wife and lay down in bed to sleep just to go to work again..)
No war is something you can plan but unexpected things happen and u have to redesign your strategy dynamicly.
To put that theory into a map it is helpful to have ONE single objective.
Think of BHD , in the movie/reality there is one single objective. Go into Mo get the members of the inofficial goverment. Extract. Eat your burgers in the afternoon.
But as you can see things go wrong and a dynamic situation develops. You loose vehicles and meet resistance where you dont expect it. You have to constantly change the plan.
If you give the player a list of objectives and a clear path (PSPs f.i) they will finish the map the same way over and over again.
What you want is that a squad plays your map, makes a strategy on how to achieve that one very goal and then try out if it can be done.
What can these single objectives be ?
F.I
- have a blackhawk chrash somewhere in the jungle try to find a way out to extraction point.
- Search a person in the map at a known location kidnap/free him and get back to base.
- Protect a convoy of civilians that are evacuated from a hostile area.
- Protect a base from beeing overrun
-Conquer a base

Now to have a differnt gameplay each and every time you must offer the palyers differnt means of transportation and routes to the target area. Once they will need explosives to get trough. If they choose a different way they will need snipers or go trough a tunnel. Next possible way only mortar can do or a choppersupport.
You must allow the players to leave out certain areas. For all possible approaches you should setup countermeasures. So if they take a chopper make sure there are stingers around. Now many maps do have these elements.
I accept that some players - as in real life- prefer clear indications on what to do. We cannot all be officers. But in a realistic squad you will have ranks and people who make a plan and those who will fullfill it.
What I personally dont like is :
- maps with walled-in areas
- maps that end after 2 min. because u didnt shot that helo with the fleeing commander
- maps that start and the first thing u see is an RPG right into your face
- maps where BG respawn infinitly and they stay in one spot
- maps that leave you no other way but a walled in or else limited path
- maps with ways over 1km footmarch in conjunction with respawners.(hide some transportation as candy)
- maps that are too dark if not exp. night maps

I dont think it makes sense to say such or such a map is better. Players have different tastes . I cannot understand how some people play those over-andover-respawner maps for 3-4 hours. But I accept that it is fun to some and therefor everyone has the right to have his favorite ones.
maps that I liked in the early past here on dfb and that do offer some variation and freedom on how to complete them are:
mapmakers
-Nutz marine
-Blue Ritzla
there are many more of course but these maps can be played several times, because they dont have such a strict order and offer global objectives.

My final statement is that the best map for me would be one that will look and feel as if it was TDM and real players who think and act dynamicly on the situation. Not dump AIs that are just there to be shot. I am still working on achieving it myself:D
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[*] posted on 3-8-2006 at 04:19 PM


I agree with what you say, it just takes some clever event work to do this....

I see maps with only a few events..these are the boring ones..

Use of lots of area triggers is the key to this kind of map, you must try and think of every thing a player might do, and create events to cater for it..you can turn off the player waypoints, and make him search for things before you turn them back on..it's endless really..you just need to be creative !!

Good post General Electric

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[*] posted on 3-18-2006 at 12:34 AM
Good input General


You forgot a couple of things due to this new IC Mod Gen. The worst kind of map is the one where there are multiple human seeking javelins but yet JO have no vehicles to ride in.

Why put a javelin in map makers when you don't give any transportation. Why not put in RPG guys. That would be more realistic.

Maps that have further events after you complete what you think the final are very good. THE BASE is a good example. The only problem with it is that it takes forever to get to the next spawn.

Map makers please think about which type of BG you use. While in a tunnel who in their right mind would have stingers down there.

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[*] posted on 5-11-2006 at 11:15 PM


"What makes a playable coop is whether it's Fun, Challenging, and Unpredictable."

I'm still in a middle of a map, haven't set up any objectives yet, but it's still fun for being partially done. I'm still having problems with setting the objectives.

Anyways, I don't use any AI respawns since the max is 240 something. I used 165+ AIs (about) spread out across two 512m grids (will add more later). Well placed - there's no need for respawns. Not bunched up for easy kills, well planned on key terrains.

Storyline (incomplete and needs refining): "An unfriendly invasion force has just entered a delta...taken over a town..as their base...and have set up fortifications...and are starting to advance" (AI Landing Support base and Forward Attack as the idea).

Though incomplete, tested with several online players (checking for bugs). The reason I used so many AIs, I got sick of bum-rush tactics, and this forced players to think. I set the objective marker with no waypoints, so players have to plan a route using the command map. The AIs don't seem to do the same thing twice as different players and different groups run different routes and play differently, and some AIs even crossed both grids which was a nice surprise since it wasn't planned.

Players that ran solo died (100% of the time). Only had one player quit because he was killed 12-18 times in a row. He ran into the open - on top of hills - into open grounds (frontal attack) - trying to take on 30-50+ (unknown number) of well scattered AI's on his own. He compromised the group's position and the group was pinned at the starting point by 135+ snipers and AK47 wielding unfriendlies for about 18-22 minutes (felt like an hour). Intense :) Even after all the fire stopped, the field was still unsafe to cross due to well hidden enemies that changed positions on their own.

The AIs were set (placed) to defend all possible routes to the objective. All routes have to be fought to get through.
For AI snipers I used 1 in 20, 1 in 35, 1 in 40 - which worked - since player snipers couldn't get comfortable with a single position and had to move with the group or eventually get ambushed or overrun. Additionally, AI's were placed in non-obvious spots and hard to see spots, so rushing by may mean a bullet in the back.

The players that survived realized that they had to fight as a group. Average completion time for group was about 45 minutes (10%-20% casualty rate - not all AIs are killed). Average completion time for players that enter and run around looking for easy kills 90+ minutes (60%-80% casualty rate). This average is based on 4 games on the same map with different players - with I guess preset expectations from what they normally played and how they normally played.

Gameplay felt more like King of the Hill though it's Coop since terrain had to be conquered and defended as the group moved. Sometimes the group would get pinned for 3 minutes, sometimes 5 minutes, sometimes 8 minutes from heavy enemy fire (varied depending on routes).

Anyways, It got rid of the safe feel of standard multiplay comforts of relaxations and kept everyone on edge. And takes the standard maps to a new level of gameplay. Trying to simulate an enemy invasion force isn't easy.

- I agree with the story line part of the map creating. In addition: although there may be a limit to the number of AIs, I found that telling players who don't know "that there may be 400 enemy units" while the group is pinned, on edge, being flanked, surrounded, almost overrun - adds to the game (even if it isn't true). :)

Oh yeah, I used the Indonesia - Ground Zero map for the test. I spent about 36 hours on it - scrapped it twice - and started it over. Have to make more changes. And thanks for your ideas.
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[*] posted on 6-18-2006 at 06:21 AM


Howdy EE...

I know this is an old thread and since it's been quite a while since I've been here I guess I have to add my own 2 cents worth on this subject.. :o

Some of you may know me and many will not. I've been a long time map maker since DF2 (I only made attack and defnd maps for that) and have made oh.. maybe 15 different maps for both DFLW and DFTFD - all coop/sp.. er.. well, mostly coop because I took a Hard Core stance after playing many coops online.

Why did I do this? Simple, I for one totally hate arcade style games, and it totally sickens me to see these wanna be RAMBO'S go into a Coop (where theoreticaly people are supposed to work together to reach the goals that the map maker set) and hurry/run/shoot/kill all the AI he can and then quickly get the map over and to go the next. I designed my maps to stop this, and I too will admit that they are hard and I do die alot.. LOL

I only use maybe 115 AI at the most, but I do use a portion of these as guards - non moving - and patrols on fixed waypoint routes, and then what ever are left over are free roamers. As others have stated I use free roamers for one simple reason, until they hear gunshots or people running or even those few idiots who use verbal taunts (I have fallen into this catagory a few times myself! LOL), they will just stay put till their time comes for action. I have posted on other forums where I also make an adjustment to the AI code (you need to open the mis file in Notepad to do this) and make a simple adjustment to the PERFECTIONIST2 setting, I use as a standard of 200. From what I have observed and been instructed by the person who taught me this is that as long as that AI lives, he gets smarter. He begins with quite a few shots till he gets a kill, and as long as he lives, he uses less shots till he gets to the 1 shot 1 kill level. Also these AI get sneaky, they find interesting places to hide so after they kill you and you come back to get them, it may take a couple deaths till you find them. I, myself, have found them hiding under bridges, in the water along the shore, hidden behind crates and barrels and once even inside a downed chopper! LOL

My tower guards are the only AI that I set to a 360 degree view and I usually give them a sniper rifle (although occasionally I 'll place an AT4 on a few - just to surprise the hell out of players (or myself when I don't pay attention), and have their shooting skills at the NL level. If they have a sniper rifle it's only cause they're good, or they wouldn't have one - same in real life.

I also rely on my 12.25 yrs experience in the US Army. Some maps have been created to resemble specific areas where I had been assigned to or nearby.

There are several goals for myself when I make a map:

First and foremost is PLAYABILITY.

Is the completed map playable for all? Will it work on people's lower end machines or those who have lower end video cards? I don't like to see people who come into my server and then start screaming LAG... it's not lag, it's frame rate loss that slows down the video action in a map. Too many items/explosions/choppers/buildings can do this. I have stopped using choppers for attack purposes and only use them as eye candy (I'll get to eye candy in a moment). This has helped cut down on frame rate loss. This and also having too many buildings close together or a vast number of buildings in a large area.

Playability also means making a map that's not too hard with the AI - having too many in one area or finding yourself surrounded by 20 AI all with AT4's..

I spread them out over the entire play area. I even place them out in areas where I see players can try to side track and try to go around the actual play area to stop them. Hey.. in real life they have patrols close in and far out, even have towers where you wouldn't expect them.

I do use way point routes for the goals for the players to keep them on the right track in the game, basically because I'll add several small housing areas or even a city that are not part of the objective - and I'll place some AI in those areas to for "just in case someone gets nosey"...

Roaming AI make any map unpredictable, they will never follow the same routes and the map will never play the same twice, so you can always expect something different when you play the map.

Earlier I said Eye Candy, what I mean is simply this:

It's the small details that make people stop and take a look and say "kewl" or cool or what ever they say.. LOL

For example, in my one map for DFLW "dangation Alley", you are a survivor of a chopper crash into a river. You have to retrieve the case (from underwater) and carry it to the new evac site that's on the far side of an enemy held territory (a small town of western wood buildings). It's a very challenging map and has quite a few AI, very very few are free roamers, most are guards and there's even a few that ride in the back of some trucks that drive up as you make your way. One eye candy item that I placed in the map is when you reach a certain triggered area, an enemy helicopter takes off and starts to fly toward your general direction - but then it appearently has some type of mechanical trouble and crashes - giving you a spot of cover in the early part of the map trying to get through an open field.

Other eye candy items I've done:

In another map, I took and overlayed working light posts with Telelphone poles, I gave the light posts a single group number and then placed generators in the target area. I then placed the combo Lamp/Telephone poles as you might see them on the street or streets. In the events I set it up so that when the generators are blown - one of the objective goals - the lamp posts are "killed" at the same time - they are then vaporized and it looks like all the lights went out with the power. There's many things you can do.

It's also simply placing items as they would be naturally - plants next to buildings and such. I've seen some maps were people used items to make traffic islands (in dflw) with bushes that looked fairly real, planter boxes and things like this. Just remember the "Frame Rate" problem though also.

I also spread my map out over a large area - sure it's a pain sometimes but if I'm going to have a large amount of AI in there, I want them spread out, and I do use more than one para drop - but NOT RIGHT ON TOP OF THE PLAYERS like I've seen so many times. Also, I randomly place the markers so that it may appear as if a real drop, there's nothing so bogus as being pinned down and having a perfect circle of 6 to 15 AI fall from the sky around you - that totally sux! LOL

Online testing with a select group of people is a must - not only does it help you look for errors in the map, but it also allows them to give you help on the good and bad aspects of the map, what needs work and what's ok. You all know the old saying: "Can't See The Forest For The Trees", you work on a map for a long period of time (say 3 weeks to more than a month), you're seeing it over and over, you will have a tendency to miss things, even though they are right in front of you! This is where others come in...

Also for my maps I have come up with a set of rules for the host to go by - but it's up to them if they wish to follow them or not.

Basically they are this:

If S/P:

No Machine Guns, No AT-4's, No Tracers, Friendly ONLY on GPS,

If MP:

No Machine Guns, No AT-4's, Friendly ONLY on GPS, No Name Tags, Friendly Kills On, No Tracers and (if you wish to make it harder) No Respawn w/Primary Weapon.


Almost all of my maps you will start with some type of armory so that if you set it with the no respawn with primary, they player can still get a weapon - and it seems that they will most always pick a different one than they had before.

The reason I made these rules is 1 - to stop rambos and 2 - to make it more like real life and not just a game. People DO make mistakes and shoot others in real life just as you will end up doing in the game.






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lel1
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[*] posted on 6-25-2006 at 08:14 PM
Interesting topic


IMO you've all made very interesting and valid comments, however no-one has mention the dynamic player concept (not the best description) let me explain my thoughts.....

A person new to FPS games has no idea that editors/server issues/custom maps/etc exist. They will be totally consummed in exploring what can and cannot be done within that environment. They will (for a while anyway) be having the time of their lives just watching the effects as they blow up maybe all and any thing within view..Later they will become aware that there are sides and objectives ....and so on
Their game perspective is dynamic, as they clock up the hours spent playing they will focus on different aspects of the game and begin to notice the games failing points. They begin to desire more varying senarios.

So new players will happily accept inferior maps, because they don't know where they come from, and temporarily care even less.
Established players (veterans) will be much more detail demanding, particular about what type and content of the maps they play, and so on.

It is possible that there are at any one time relatively few new players, as there playing veterans, BUT there are probably many more that are somewhere in between gradually making the transition, and who each have their own particular game requirements which are dependant on their own personal characteristics and the time they have clocked up playing FPS.

Just a thought...................
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[*] posted on 11-8-2006 at 01:07 AM
Interesting stuff


Personally I go for intense every time, I simply want the gamer to come away feeling he's been in one hell of a battle. I do try to make it realistic, but at the same time I'm always trying new and different things. I also like to create a story line, one that the gamer likes to play along with.

Having said all that though, I'm still learning a lot of things so I don't always get it right. One thing you have to remember as a gamer, is that there are limits to what the mappers can do. A good case in point would be a recent map of mine called (IC-Dead-People3) I envisaged a gloomy looking place with lots of fire and smoke, just to set the mood. All that had nothing to do with game play, it was simply decoration.

After it was finished I was very happy with the look and feel of the map, but the fire was too much. In the end I had to drastically remove a lot of the decoration, after which it didn't feel like the same map. My point though, is that there are limits to what we can accomplish.

I also think that all mappers have there own style, some will stick to realism religously. Whilst others will try to push the envelope to its limits. For me, it's all about fun. If you play a map and come away feeling like it wasn't enough, the mapper failed. If you play a map and upon completion you want to play it again, the mapper did something right.

There is just one more point that I'd like to mention. As a mapper, I enjoy comments directed at my maps. Mainly because I like to know if I'm getting things right or not. For me at least, Feedback can help the mapper to become a better creator of maps. I've had my fair share of comments about something that was wrong in one of my maps, and in most cases I will go out of my way to correct it.

Occasionally I will make a mistake but not see it until it's pointed out to me, in which case I'm happy and obliged to correct the error. That doesn't mean I'm always going to agree with you though, but I will always look at your comments and take them seriously.

MIA
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[*] posted on 11-15-2006 at 09:37 AM


Well, I have played BHD coop for a month now, may be less then Fireant or any of you vets, but it was enough to categorize the noobs.

1. Rambos - simply ignore the team, grab a M60 and run away in front, kill the AI or get killed by AI, second is the most, since no one makes easy maps no more. Usually rant the medics and others for being "slowpokes" and the F word, which is common in their vocabulary and many others...

2. PSP runners - name says it all. People, that just run from PSP to PSP, ignore the objectives and get shot all the time, since they dont even take the time to go prone or locate the BG shooting at them.
I as a medic am pissed with this kind of people, since I have to run after them to med them and get killed 'cos of them
I have initiated a "NO-Rambo&PSP-Runners meding" policy. I will only med teammates, that are near me and have died for a reason, not because they just ran into the snakes nest.

3. Hackers - again as Rambos, they dont respond on any of messages. If it gets hard, they turn their cheats on and cheat the game, usually screwing up the events alongside. Most common are wall hacks, since they are too lazy to do the objectives to open the gates. Includes "no-target" cheat as well, so no bg targets them or flying.

4. Original noobs - yes, there are original specimen of noobs in existance too. They usually dont do the objectives, then they try everything to get the door open ie: grenades, m203, satchels, at4. Some objects are destroyable with simple use of a couple of bullets, but they usually waste precious satchels to blow them up.
A lot of these people havent played the Single player campaign, or else they would know, which objects are destroyable with certain weapons. Also, they shoot with miniguns for no reason, but when you need them in situations, where minuguns are your only weapon, powerful enough to kill the enemy from a helo, they suddenly cant shoot [Censored]...suggest, you go by land, if youre pro player....Noob Airways are in the area...

5. Plain "wusses" that cant accept a challenge - when it gets hard, they cheat, or leave the game. Mostly all noobs are this type, since they start saying, the map sucks and mapper should kill himself or if they die a lot, and no one meds them, since medics get killed alongside. No one can see a good map anymore, when it gets rough, they just leave...if they dont have a life, its because, they cant just press Esc, when the life get tough...shame on you :O

All results of lack of teamplay and cooperation(!)

And a fact, I cant understand: The players can shoot you and hunt you all over the map in TKOTH or TDM, but they cant shoot AIs in coop?
They usually just run to keep up with Rambos and die, since they are so lazy, that they cant even turn around and send a burst up the bgs ass...


There are maps, which let the players to choose, what to do first, but it usually leads to disruption and you see players wondering around the map, instead of going from waypoint to waypoint and complete the objectives along with it.
Others are close urban maps, where they can work together, but this is mostly because of the fact, that they are forced to be together, since there is no other way.
They usually run in groups, since everyone wants to be first and get raped by a RPG...I try to stay behind, but either they force me to go, since they "overrun" me or they get killed and I arrive a few secs after them and they are already screaming "medic" all over the place....

I am planning on a series of events to kill players, if they try anything stupid or ignore the objectives...also, for some good laugh, I have started on a third version of Tomb Raider..if you have played Tomb Raider Returns, then you know, what I have in mind....hehehe..just to let you know...

But its 95% chance of having small number of people in the server, when the map is on...today, there were 10 people in the server, and when TR2 came, 6 left...one told the reason.....Wusses, as I said..cant accept a challenge....











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[*] posted on 8-21-2007 at 02:15 PM


My take is that since the AI will /never/ compare to a human player, setting the accuracy to 100 is never a problem. As far as shooting bushes, again, it's something I see in multiplayer games all of the time, when humans (like myself) hide in bushes. I just don't see the problem. I always find a way to "beat the system", i.e. I use my brain and find a way around the tough AI. At any rate, we all have our preferences. I prefer a challenge, and don't mind dying.

-Tenedos
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