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Zohar
Private
Posts: 44
Registered: 2-11-2003
Location: Saint Louis, MO, USA
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Mood: schpadoinkle
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To be honest this is the stupidest question with some of the stupidest responses I have ever seen. I think to avoid making fools of ourselves, we
should not atempt to pit ourselves agaisnt one another with such ignorant threads. Life is not a game of "my country is better than yours" or "we
could blow your country up" etc etc... we are all human beings. Do I like America? Well, I have "American" friends. I am an "American". I was born
here, grew up here. And that is all that matters to me. I've had stronger opinions than that, even in this forum, but I will not judge a country as a
whole. Ignorance fuels hatred, and I for one will have no part in it.
The illusion of safety is just that, an illusion.
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Mirage
Captain
Posts: 263
Registered: 7-19-2003
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Mood: Anti-Capitalist
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I would agree with Zohar, but seeing as I don't seem to be very popular in these forums anyway - What harm will this do.
Firstly, I don't 'hate' any particular person, or american people in general. What I do hate, however is what America is doing to the world.
One of the first things about America, as I am studying a degree related to the environment, is the fact that America is the biggest polluter of the
world. It has not only backed out of many treaties, including the Kyoto protocal, which would have been of major benefit to the state of the world's
environment had America signed up. The US currently contains 4% of the world's population but produces about 25% of all carbon dioxide emissions
Also, by pushing capitalism and industrialisation upon developing countries for its own gain, it is also increasing pollution levels from these
countries. Despite all this, the American goverment refuses to take responsibility for its actions, and is more concerned with relatively short-term
economic gain, than the long-term well being of the environment. Did anyone notice how much money, energy corporations and heavy industrial firms
donated to Bush's election campaign, in order for him to gain power, and them to increase their profits by being allowed to pollute. The need for
preservation of our world far outweighs any economic benefits that America may gain. One of the reasons that america is not concerned is the fact
that global warming in particular is not predicted to have as drastic and effect on the USA as in developing countries in warmer climates, such as
those in Africa, which seems to be of of no concern to America.
The problems the USA is causing to the environment however, is only the tip of the iceberg. I also strongly disagree with America's foreign policy,
which many Americans are ignorant to.
The cold war, for example has invoked strong anti-communist sentiments in American foreign policy. So strong in fact, that it has pushed its
previously democratic foreign policy into what some might consider to be political fascism. History has shown that any non-democratic nation is
likely to have had attempts funded and supported by the American government to displace their government (usually by killing or capturing them).
These actions by the US government have often resulted in great human suffering. The country now known as the Democratic republic of Congo, for
example was previously communist-run. America funded and armed a terrorist group in Congo, who were opposed to the government at the time, and the
result? The once relatively peaceful country was thrown into a civil war which has lasted for decades, and great human suffering. And what has
America done about this? Nothing, because the communist government no longer has power, as the country was thrown into chaos. America got what it
wanted, and doesn't care about what happens afterwards. America is also responsible for many other similar incidences in Africa in its anti-communist
campaign.
America is the world's biggest exporter of arms. It refuses weapons inspections and frequently ignores the UN and other international agreements,
including its continuation to develop biological weapons (I don't even need to point out the irony in this do I?). Another treaty which America
refused to sign was the Anti Land Mine treaty. Most of you will have seen the long-term devastation caused by anti-personall land mines - especially
their inability to distinguish between a civillian and an enemy soldier.
The last problem which I will adress (and believe me, I have lots more) is that of Israel. Israel is a country with a very large influence from the
USA. Both monetarially, and subsequently in political terms. Israel recieves 3 billion dollars in military support every year, to aid Israel in its
illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. To allow Israel to kill innocent Palestinian people including children, destroy Palestinian citizens'
homes and holy sites. And also to illegally suppy Israel with over 200 nuclear warheads, which breaches international agreements prohibiting the
proliferation of nuclear arms.
All in all - These are some of the main reasons why I do not a gree with American policies. This is not to say that America does not do some good in
the world. And I remind you again that this is not a knock on the ordinary American citizen. Most are ignorant, or choose to ignore such factors.
The unconditional patriotism of many Americans, however, does strike me as odd, given the circumstances their country is in.
I can only hope that at least one person reads this and understands why some people dislike America.
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A.Bullet
General
Posts: 1319
Registered: 7-23-2002
Location: CT. USA
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Wow.. Mirage.. thanks for being perhaps the one person who has put forward a valid and thoughtful argument other than the US sucks because I say so..
However, keep in mind not all Americans are oblivious of the faults of the US government - but, in a country of 250 million people, one voice has very
little effect.
Democracy is a great thing, and of that there can be no doubt, but when the USA was in its infancy Thomas Jefferson made the statement "A democratic
society depends upon an informed and educated citizenry." (ok its questionable if he made the quote or if it was someone else LOL but its a good quote
nonetheless)
This is no doubt the truth and in fact the main reason for the majority of problems with American society and American foriegn policy today is the
lack of fundamental understanding or even a desire for a fundamental understanding of world issues.
The majority of American's are hard working people who are working to put food on the table and garner thier next paycheck and have no interest in
foriegn affairs - they pay little attention to things happening outside of the range of thier eyesite - or perhaps the range they can drive in thier
car in a few hours.
In the US .. money IS power.. the US media is controlled by the same puppet masters who fund general election campaigns - and when they feel a certain
way on global issues and foriegn policy . .they see to it that the correct people are the ones to attain office at the same time that they control
media bias to sway public opinion in the direction they would like things to go politically.
Its a scary thought.. but unfortunately it is true - the media in the US is the main information source for the majority of Americans - and although
there is free press - the press is a business .. and like any other business money rules all.
The many diverse voices of American media are more and more being merged and compacted into large conglomerates with a stranglehold on information and
the ability to sway public opinion to thier will with heavily edited propoganda peices designed with the sole intent of inflaming the American public
to action on certain issues that they for right or for wrong feel are the 'proper' ideals.
Until real and effective campaign finance reform is put in place to stop the huge amount of influence the large corporations and the rich exert over
politics, and until the American people realize that research of foriegn events that arent front page news is just as important as research of the
'current' crisis - things are unlikely to change..
Unfortunately about 95% of people in this country are uninformed.. and looking back at the quotation for earlier its easy to see how things have
gotten so far off track..
Help make America a stronger country.. learn about foriegn events.. tell your friends.. make the people informed.. things will change - for the
better!
-- A.Bullet
-- Owner / Head Programmer
-- DFBarracks.com
"You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom. You can only be free if I am free." -- Clarence Darrow |
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Steptoe
Lord Field Marshal BLUNT !
Posts: 4676
Registered: 12-19-2002
Location: NewZealand
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I got to agree with Zohar, its a stupid question, just to cause strife and division.
So lets all have a war and the country with the biggest bomb can win, does that make it the best country?
Of coarse Americans love America, Canuks love Canada etc etc.
Of Coarse I love NZ and would die for it, and not America, or dang near any other country.
And I believe NZ is a far better place than any other, just as everyone one here feels for their country.
This thread is dumb, piontless, stupid, and lacks total for thought.
And all the rest of u who took the bait....
no i will leave it that ...:P
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Steptoe
Lord Field Marshal BLUNT !
Posts: 4676
Registered: 12-19-2002
Location: NewZealand
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opps didnt mean to do this:P
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Zohar
Private
Posts: 44
Registered: 2-11-2003
Location: Saint Louis, MO, USA
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Mood: schpadoinkle
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"The last problem which I will adress (and believe me, I have lots more) is that of Israel. Israel is a country with a very large influence from the
USA. Both monetarially, and subsequently in political terms. Israel recieves 3 billion dollars in military support every year, to aid Israel in its
illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. To allow Israel to kill innocent Palestinian people including children, destroy Palestinian citizens'
homes and holy sites. And also to illegally suppy Israel with over 200 nuclear warheads, which breaches international agreements prohibiting the
proliferation of nuclear arms."
The amount of money given to Israel I agree seems quite absurd, and its support of their nuclear program as well. As a point to be made on the side
regarding this post, as the "illegal occupation" issue was quite "on the side" as well, is that "Palestine" is not actually an official territory. And
even using the term "territory" does not imply that anyone living in that territory, even claiming independence, is occupying it. I understand where
you might be coming from, because there are many directions people view the issue from. It's harsh to say they are false, but I do feel clarity is the
key. "Palestine" was a term used to describe the general area of land that Israel's borders currently contain. Even the early Jewish inhabitants of
Palestine called it such, quite simply because before the Israeli War of Independence, no one considered the land to "belong" to any specific group
other than its mandate owner, which was (before its Independence) Great Britain. To clarify that, by early Jewish settlers I am referring to Jews in
the early 1900's, not the ones who lived there well before. "Palestine" has almost always been a mandate. For quite some time it was controlled by the
Ottoman Empire. Though specific racial groups may have dominated the land at any given time, they did not have the benefits of owning any part of it.
To zoom back to the broad issue, which many overlook, Israel was not simply established by a radical bunch of Zionists, it was given to the Jewish
people as a "national home" by the British, under the Balfour Declaration. This declaration was aimed at allowing the Jews a national identity in the
land then known as Palestine, and freedom from oppression which they were suffering under the hands of Nazi Germany, and elsewhere. A mass migration
took place, and the little sliver of land became crowded. Arab inhabitants began to fear that a Jewish government might arise, and conflicts began in
the form of skirmishes. Many of the former inhabitants closed their shops, even left their homes. The Jewish newcomers pleaded with them in documented
police cases not to alter their lives, but to work together. Skirmishes became small acts of terror. The inhabitants commonly known as the
Palestinians were also granted protection by the British under a seperate document. The conflict, and the increasing violence in the region, led the
British to limit the number of Jews entering the county, even a complete cessation. But with Jews worldwide fearing a Nazi takeover, this was
impossible. The British pulled out of the region, and Israel began negotiations for independence. Attention to the region caused a widespread panic
amongst the arab community of a Jewish revival in the "holy land", and countries such as Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq began their own
negotiations. Violence reached an all time high in early 1948. A UN treaty was sent with Folke Bernadotte, who wrote in his book "To Jerusalem"...
"The Palestinian Arabs had at present no will of their own. Neither have they ever developed any specifically Palestinian nationalism. The demand for
a separate Arab state in Palestine is consequently relatively weak. It would seem as though in existing circumstances most of the Palestinian Arabs
would be quite content to be incorporated in Transjordan." Global pressure was put on the Arabs, even by the Soviets. The UN partition had been
introduced, splitting the land in half. The Jews accepted it quickly, since at that time they consisted of 30% of the population and only owned 6% of
the land. The Arabs refused it, and called for Holy War. Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition
vote the Arabs would drench "the soil of [your] beloved country with the last drop of [your] blood . . . ." The day Israel claimed independence, they
were attacked by all of the forementioned countries simultaneously. This was not a political war. If you read up on the issue of Israel's Independence
war, you will find that the aim was most often the "eradication" of the Jews, and the complete destruction of Israel. NOT the liberation of so called
"Palestine"... In one of the more popular anti-Israeli websites, you will find this article: http://www.endtheoccupation.org/article.php?id=162 ... Note how they fail to answer their own question. Do or did the Arabs want to drive the Jews
into sea? Yes. It was quoted. For example: "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian
massacres and the Crusades." Spoken by Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, in anticipation of victory over the new Jewish microstate in
1948 by the 5 invading Arab armies. The middle east is a mess, and though popular, the idea that Israel has no right to exist is outgrowing its biased
and hateful roots. I seriously hate to bring up this comparison, but I must for the sake of preserving something truthful in this world. Should we,
the citizens of America, be expelled from our country under the orders of foreign nations, and undure daily terrorist attacks, for our colonial
takeover of this country? If the answer is no, is that to say that America DOES have a right to exist? And if so, is it because of America's political
superiority to the former inhabitants? Or perhaps our military advantage? Or was it because we too were seeking freedom and a home of our own, at all
costs? We fought bloody wars, and our adversaries fought back. Israel defends itself from terrorism on a tiny sliver of land they are continually
trying to be edged off of. They have never sought annhilation of the palestinian arabs. Americans grew angry at Israel during the past years over the
widely public "Death toll" which always had more Palestinian deaths than Israeli. Israel was (and is) killing their attackers, who, according to the
Islamic religion and the Jihad, are bound to kill them to fulfill their own "duties?" War is unpleasant, and there will be casualties. There will be
things some people don't wish to hear or see. Israel has its own regrets for some of the things their fight for independence has entailed. They are
reminded of them daily by their many enemies and cold critics around the globe, while a blind eye is turned to the other side. America didn't just
step in and support Israel for the heck of it. In fact, the leader of the first Israeli Air Force mission was an American volunteer. The lone casualty
of that mission was South African. These were people who would not sit back and let the Jews be backed into a geographic pit and murdered. America may
go overboard in terms of financial contribution. And I despise any nuclear plan, regardless of the situation. But it's not impossible to see why
America has defended itself amid global pressure to break ties with Israel. We have the same background. In closing, you'll find in any good history
book a quote by one of our leaders who said quite simply "Israel is like us."
Postscript : This isn't a flame against anyone, and I hope not to get any flames in response. You shouldn't have to know, but I'll say anyway, I have
no religious affiliation at this time. I am an ordinary America, born and raised in the midwest, of all places (for our international friends, the
midwest is reeeally American). I have just always defended Israel's freedom. Simple as that. I hope this clarifies something instead of inciting
hostility. Direct flames to dev/null :P My point on America was already made, this was just a side issue I had to comment on.
The illusion of safety is just that, an illusion.
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Mirage
Captain
Posts: 263
Registered: 7-19-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: Anti-Capitalist
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I'm glad I provoked some intelligent responses to this thread.
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PacmanLC
Grunt
Posts: 5
Registered: 6-21-2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
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ya i love america and to all u that dont ur country is probably getting aid from us. eiter food or money. and u think everyone is all rich in the usa
ha ha ur wrong. that money u getting could be going to our homeless here. i personnaly think we shouldnt give that much to other countries. we are
giving millions to africa to fight aids. the gov. could give that money to us and we would be much better off
just a opinion agree or not
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Mirage
Captain
Posts: 263
Registered: 7-19-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: Anti-Capitalist
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I don't even think that's worth a reply...
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Cr@cK
DFB MapRater
Posts: 213
Registered: 10-11-2002
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Mood: moodless
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Well Mirage,I wholeheartedly agree,not even worht a response.
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Steptoe
Lord Field Marshal BLUNT !
Posts: 4676
Registered: 12-19-2002
Location: NewZealand
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| Quote: | Originally posted by PacmanLC
ya i love america and to all u that dont ur country is probably getting aid from us. eiter food or money
just a opinion agree or not |
Well I wil reply,
M8, ok u want us to get down on our knees and b eternally gratefull and do do your begging as your country see fit...
Stick it
We dont get aid , money, food, military support at all, we get trade restictions bans, and alsorts of crap that your government doesnt even tell u
about.
And Y, cause we told u to stick your and every ones nuke ships in in our waters....
about 17 yrs ago.
Yet our troops have fought beside US troops in every war/police action except 1 in the last 100yrs, and to your gov, we are NOT freinds,
And u think this is isolated?
So dont come any attudes that we should bend to US gov wishes as they dictate, we are a free country and a free thinking ppl, with free speach.
And we have more freedom that the ppl of America, past that by US citizans who have worked and lived here.
We will stand up and do stand up for that regardless of any bully in the playground.
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Zohar
Private
Posts: 44
Registered: 2-11-2003
Location: Saint Louis, MO, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: schpadoinkle
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Pacman, I'm the only fool here willing to reply to your post apparently. All I want to say is your comment in reference to Africa was disgraceful. I
hate to judge but I feel I would be speaking for pretty much everyone. Have some compassion for your fellow human being! We aren't sending ENOUGH to
Africa!!!
The illusion of safety is just that, an illusion.
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Redneck
Private
Posts: 48
Registered: 7-24-2002
Location: Mississippi
Member Is Offline
Mood: *DCE* is Hiring
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well, i would have to agree both ways, one with pacman, the other with zohar. yes, we aren't sending enough money to africa and other countries. and
yes, i think the gov't should spread the money out within the states. do tax cuts, do whatever. but, i'm going to bring up a issue that my grandfather
fought for.
1. Why does america always go out and fight another countries war? Why should we as americans allow the gov't to rip apart a family, a father and his
baby boy, a son from his parents. to go off, and get shot up, and sent home in a box? now i can understand iraq, and afghanistan, i agree with bush on
that 110%. because somewhere in either country lies the perpetrator who is behind 9/11 ( may god rest their souls). But, think about the Korean war,
think about, vietnam. and the main reason why we went to wwII was cuz of japans ass bombin pearl harbor. now, for that, forget 2 Atom bombs, i would
wipe that country completely off the globe..I have a bunch of friends right now in Iraq, who are fighting to KEEP us back home safe. how many
countries do you KNOW of that actually do that.. Look at france, they chicken'd out..Where were you at france? you know, America will remember that,
how france left us pissing in the wind. your time will come, when you need our help. and one other thing, when 9/11 happened, and all them rag heads,
started dancing in the street, you just don't know the feeling of hatred for anyone of that race..I felt probably what the other 12 million people
felt..And now, we are over there helping them. funny how things change in a matter of time. they went from hating us to loving us. so don't down
america, we have been thru alot in this great nations past, and look at us now, Still Standing Strong, and always will.
--[[DFBarracks Squad Forum Mod ]]-- |
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Steptoe
Lord Field Marshal BLUNT !
Posts: 4676
Registered: 12-19-2002
Location: NewZealand
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Hope my sentaments above are anti America, no, leans more to a few polcies that r not right.
America as u Americans have stated, its not perfect...
Just a small note here....
What country ha been in more wars and police actions than anyother country in the last 110 odd yrs...
And may well have fought beside more than anyothers.....
This little country in the middle of the biggest Ocean in the world, tucked dowm on the roaring forties. New Zealand,
We dont ask aid, or get any, we give it...
We are of no threat, ecomonically, or miltary, or even overstayers/socailly.
Yet we are treated , not by the people, but by there elected Government as a country that poses a or has attacked America
Now look from our point of veiw?
Would u then be a fan of America?
Americans wonder y there is such an anti American feeling....but there government doesnt tell them about these things.....
Im posting this not knocking America, but hopefully to give a little understanding from both sides....
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Mirage
Captain
Posts: 263
Registered: 7-19-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: Anti-Capitalist
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Redneck, your post comes accross as somewhat racist. Not intentionally of course, but who are 'they'? Arabic people? Muslims? You really can't
generalise like that. I don't know exactly what media input you have over there, but I didn't get the impression that most Iraqis were 'pleased' you
invaded their country. As for your comments on WW2 - Japan was a dictatorship at the time of WW2, which means the people of the country did not have
a say in whether they went to war or not, so 'wiping their ccountry off the globe' is not a very intelligent thing to say.
I did not support the war in Iraq, neither did I support the war in Afghanistan. Few Americans know that more innocent civillians died in Afghanistan
(at least 3000) than died in the 9/11 attacks (roughly 2500). I'm not saying either incident was right, and I am in no way justifying the actions of
Al Quaida. But the result of the war in Afghanistan was effectively nil. The Taliban were once considered to be American allies, while you funded
and armed them during their war with the Soviets. It is probably fair to say that the Taliban were a brutal and ruthless group, but nowadays they
have only been replaced by other brutal and ruthless groups. Women still have very little in the way of human rights in the country, and you still
haven't found Bin Laden or any other major terrorists. In fact, everything the US went to war for in Afghanistan seems to have failed (except the
fact that they needed to show how big and tough they still were - A lot of Americans felt they needed to see the blood of the perpetrators of 9/11
spilt, so America went and killed the closest people it could find to the 9/11 terrorists).
I'm sure everyone's heard the reasons to oppose the war in Iraq a million times, which are basically summarised by the fact that:
- Iraq's connection with terrorists was disproved.
- There were no WMDs.
- Iraq never posed any kind of threat to the United States.
- The argument that the country needed to be 'liberalised' was weak, as most Iraqis didn't want their country to be invaded. Plus the fact that there
are dozens of countries with reigimes similar to that of Iraq, and I'm sure even the USA isn't prepared to attack half of Africa and the Middle East.
- UN backing was not given (and for good reason).
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Raven~AoD
noob
Posts: 125
Registered: 1-4-2003
Location: Ontario/Lindsey, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dain Bramaged
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Zohar dont take this the wrong way bud i skiped ur novels u left on here.
A-Bullet that was a great post and i agree with you 100%. Im Still basking in the glow of its greatness. I dont think Americas forign policies are
compleatly wrong but the US government went about it the wrong way. What the should have done is said something like they did the President did in the
begining of the movie AirForce One. Anyway im on the phone while im typing this and i forgot what i was gonna say. I ll think about and be back l8er
Hey look it's the two symbols of the republican party, an elephant and a big fat white guy afrais of change.
Floggings will continue until morale improves. |
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Zohar
Private
Posts: 44
Registered: 2-11-2003
Location: Saint Louis, MO, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: schpadoinkle
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Redneck
1. Why does america always go out and fight another countries war? Why should we as americans allow the gov't to rip apart a family, a father and his
baby boy, a son from his parents. to go off, and get shot up, and sent home in a box? now i can understand iraq, and afghanistan, i agree with bush on
that 110%. because somewhere in either country lies the perpetrator who is behind 9/11 ( may god rest their souls). But, think about the Korean war,
think about, vietnam. and the main reason why we went to wwII was cuz of japans ass bombin pearl harbor. now, for that, forget 2 Atom bombs, i would
wipe that country completely off the globe..I have a bunch of friends right now in Iraq, who are fighting to KEEP us back home safe. how many
countries do you KNOW of that actually do that.. |
Well, as it has already been pointed out, Iraq has no identifiable connection with terrorism. Not of our country, anyway. Saddam and his regime were
known for terrorism within their borders (but we weren't too keen on helping the Iraqi's then, interestingly, in fact we betrayed them.) The
terrorists you speak of were from Saudi Arabia and Egypt, two American "allies" at the moment, not speaking of course of bin-laden. The thing here
is... you can't blame an entire country for one man's deeds. Or, in your words, two countries. Full of human beings, not all of whom are guilty of
anything at all. The mentality of blaming an entire country for one man's deeds is what caused 9/11... you say you would wipe Japan off the face of
the earth because of the Japanese military's actions? Sounds like something bin-laden would say. He hates our military, he hates our politics, so he
kills innocent civilians to make his point... that's what America did to Japan. I will not judge you, but your thoughts should bring you shame.
The illusion of safety is just that, an illusion.
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Crusader
Private
Posts: 61
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
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"killed for it"
And where did you kill for it?
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Bullet_Patriot
Private
Posts: 76
Registered: 7-20-2003
Location: Louisiana
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pissed Off
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yeah I like it, Why? The freedom to do things, the best entertainment you can find, and plus you will find just about anything in this country that
you cant find in others.
But you know somethign? I dont like Canada, why you ask? Canada couldnt defend their own country they so poor, Canada is a bunch if idiots, Well most
of East Canada is, I aint gonna say everyone is since I have a couple of good Canadian Friends.
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